Hi everybody,
It has been brought to the Club's attention that kittens are being bred and sold with a Cream Burmese (27f) in their pedigree. IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT ANY PROSPECTIVE PURCHASER OF A RAGDOLL KITTEN IS FULLY AWARE THAT THIS BREED IS NOT A RECOGNISED 'OUTCROSS' BREED WITHIN THE RAGDOLL REGISTRATION POLICY. Any offspring will not be able to be shown and will not progress to the full register.
It does not matter how many generations back the Burmese appears, offspring will always remain on the reference register. The cat to seek out in any pedigree is SCHWEICAUN BRAMBLE STAR: 27f CREAM BURMESE. Offspring of this cat are believed to include:
AVENLO MARGELITE CALIOPI; ADVENLO KNIGHT ERRANT; ADFURLO INARICCI;
Pedigrees should be checked as far back as possible to see if any of the above names appear.
This matter will be raised at the next Ragdoll BAC meeting with a view to reviewing the Registration Policy .
Brian Ashworth, Chairman & BAC delegate
tamischaba
cream burmeseoutcross
It would have been very halpfull if GCCF had given correct information out when asked about the pedigree's of these cats. We were told that after 5th generation they would go to ragdolls but because of someone getting in touch with them from TRBCC they then suddenly changed there minds that they would never be ragdolls. It is not even affecting the person who started all this off as she is still selling these kittens that she advertises on cat sites and in cat magazines. Seemingly it started before her but we dont know who was breeding way back then.
brianandanne
Hi everybody,
Just to clarify, from what information we have, it does seem that people have been misled, but the situation did not change just because TBRCC intervened. Burmese have never been allowed in the Ragdoll outcross policy, the Registration Policy is clear on this. So far as anybody using Burmese and advertising the offspring, they can only be advertised as Ragdoll type and of course can be sold as pets but will never be able to be shown.
tamischaba
cream burmese
GCCF maybe would not just change it because someone from TBRCC got involved but until that point GCCF were still telling people that on the 6th generation they would become ragdols so they were giving out wrong information until that point therefor people that were breeders thought that it would eventually be ok to sell kittens for breeding and show purposes i know as i was one of the people that was told this after another breeder was and another one has been given that information in the last couple months by GCCF.
Sue Allen
Unfortunately it would seem that GCCF gave out erroneous information when contacted by the breeders who have been unwittingly caught out.
The breeder responsible for the outcross is now deceased. It is not the GCCF who govern the registration policy of any breed but the affiliated breed clubs themselves. In this case TBRCC and PRBCC.
It is NOT a case of anyone or particular club intervening it is a case of what is the agreed Registration Policy of the Ragdoll Breed as registered with the GCCF. I for one, and the majority of others, do NOT want to see unacceptable breeds entering our Ragdoll gfene pool.
For everones information please read the Registration policy for the Ragdoll as agreed by TBRCC and PRBCC.
REGISTRATION POLICY FOR RAGDOLL CATS
Permitted outcross breeds
A Cats of Ragdoll type, but which do not conform to a recognised Ragdoll colour or pattern, bred from matings between Ragdolls and permitted outcross breeds.
B Full Register Siamese (excluding Caramel)
Note: No outcrossing acceptable after 23 October 2002.
Full Register Siamese (excluding Caramel) in the following colours: 24b and 24c.
Note: No outcrossing acceptable after 23 October 2004.
C Persian Longhairs who have been registered on the Full & Supplementary Register where the preceding five generations did not include Silver, Shaded, Tipped, Bicolour or White.
Note: No outcrossing acceptable after 23 October 2002.
Persian Longhairs in the following colours; 13b3, 13b4, 50b and 50c who have been registered on the Full & Supplementary Register where the preceding five generations did not include Silver, Shaded, Tipped, Bicolour or White.
Note: No outcrossing acceptable after 23 October 2004.
N.B. It is recommended that any Persian to be used as an outcross should be certified free of PKD under the FAB/PKD Screening Scheme.
1. Full Register
Ragdolls with Championship or Provisional status which have only Ragdolls who have been registered on the Full or Supplementary Register in their pedigrees within the preceding five generations shall be placed on the Full Register.
2. Supplementary Register
Ragdolls with Championship or Provisional status which have only Ragdolls in their pedigrees within the preceding five generations shall be placed on the Supplementary Register.
3. Experimental Register
Ragdolls with Preliminary status which have only Ragdolls in their pedigrees within the preceding five generations shall be placed on the Experimental Register.
4. Reference Register
a. Cats which conform to a recognised Ragdoll colour and pattern, bred from a mating between a Ragdoll and one of the permitted outcross breeds as defined in A, B or C above, shall be registered on the Reference Register as Ragdolls.
b. Cats bred from a mating between a Ragdoll and one of the permitted outcross breeds as defined in A, B or C above, but which do not conform to a recognised Ragdoll colour and pattern, shall be registered on the Reference Register as ‘of Ragdoll type’.
c. Cats of Ragdoll appearance bred from any mating other than Ragdoll x Ragdoll, or Ragdoll x one of the permitted outcross breeds as defined in A, B or C above, shall be registered on the Reference Register with no mention of Ragdoll type and with no progression.
N.B. Imports
Imported Ragdolls with a certified pedigree showing five generations of Ragdoll breeding shall be registered as the first generation on the Supplementary or Experimental Register.
Imported cats whose certified pedigrees do not conform to this will be registered on the Reference Register as in 4a, 4b or 4c above.
Should any further colours of Ragdoll be developed as a breed, the appropriate cats may be registered as Ragdolls on the Experimental or Reference Register as appropriate, at the request of the Ragdoll breed Advisory Committee. Those cats already registered on the Reference Register, but which qualify to be registered on the Experimental Register, shall then be treated as if they were registered on the Experimental Register.
Sue xx
tamischaba
cream burmese
Thanks for that Sue but when you look up any information about ragdolls nowhere do you find Siamese mentioned anywhere in the breeding or outcrossing and having had Siamese in the past myself apart from the blue eyes they certainly do not have any other characteristics that ragdolls have as they are not playfull or laid back infact they are very alouf. Persians i can see with the long coat but even they are not laid back like the ragdoll. Most sites say a birman or a burmese type which i can again see as birmans have the blue eyes and burmese are very laid bck and playfull and love being around people so whoever decided what they could be outcrossed with certainly wasn't going on temprament if it had to be either siamese or persian.
Sue Allen
Regardless of the majority of literature available on the origins of the Ragdoll, a lot of which is supposition and dubious info, the fact remains the only way that a Ragdoll is a Colourpointed cat is due to there having to have been Siamese input into the breed at the time Anne Baker started her Ragdoll breeding. The Siamese is the only naturally occuring Colourpointed cat in the world, and has been used to introduce the Colourpointing gene into, amoungst others, the Persian. Josephine has been described as being a white angora type cat, so therefore we can assume, and going of the photo we have all seen, that she was semi long haired. She probably had some Himilayan (Persian) ancestry. Ann Baker bred "experimental Persians" amoung other cats. There is a photo of her dangling a large red cat from her hand, this cat was Fort Knox. He WAS a Persian. He is in some Ragdoll pedigrees.
I am assuming that you were not greatly involved in the Ragdoll breed up to the time the current Registration Policy was adopted. Please forgive me if I am wrong.
Moving forward to June 2001. An Extraordinary meeting was called. This meeting was the culmination of years of disagreement between parties with differing opinions regards the acceptance of the Red and Tabby Ragdolls that had been imported from the USA in the early 1990's.
The only way that certain parties would give their consent to these imports
being recognised as Ragdoll by the GCCF (all these imports came into the country with certified pedigrees from the registering bodies in the USA), was if the outcrosses they had been doing for a number of years were also accepted. The breeds they had outcrossed to included, not only Siamese but also British Shorthair and various Orientals and Burmese.
It had got to the point that the GCCF was on the verge of imposing an outcross policy that their Genetics Committee saw fit for OUR Ragdoll breed.
If the TBRCC had had a choice then TBRCC would still have a strict NO outcross policy. However, unfortunately, this was not to be. There was NO way this imposition could be allowed, therefore a compromise had to be agreed on for the future good and continuance of the breed as a whole.
With the input and expertise of the GCCF Genetics Committee, the Ragdoll BAC and the TBRCC and PRBCC membership the Registration Policy as of my last post was put in place.
The reason the Siamese and Persian were agreed upon as being the best of a bad bunch was because of their OBVIOUS genetic input into the breed at the time that Ann Baker was developed them. While we are on the subject let US ALL be under NO illusion that the Ragdoll is a naturally occuring or naturally bred cat, it is NOT, it is a manufactured/designer breed that came about by pure accident rather than any scientific/genetic knowledge.
The Birman was not an acceptable outcross as the white gloving gene is nothing like the white spotting gene of the Ragdoll. The Burmese is not a Ccolourpointed cat and was not one of the outcrosses recommended by the GCCF Genetics Committee.
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that in AUS and NZ they did have an official outcross programme to reintroduce chocolate and lilac into the Ragdoll. They used the Birman breed to achieve that objective. Some of the offspring off this programme have been imported into Europe. If any of you are thinking off importing chocolate or lilac or any Ragdoll from Europe can I please ask that you request at least a 15 genaration pedigree from the breeder. This could well save you and the Ragdoll breed a hell of a lot of heartache and money in the long run. Those cats that may come into the UK, from Europe, AUS and NZ with the Birman background will not be accepted on the GCCF register as being Ragdoll.
Sue
tamischaba
cream burmese
Thanks for all that Sue and no i wasn't in on that as i have only been really breeding with a few girls for nearly 4 years and i only had 1 girl before that.
I do have a few girls now and also my own stud boys 1 of these with the cream burmese in his pedigree but also have 1 with general ginger in his so was rather dissapointed as the 1 with the burmese in is so gentle and laid back but never mind these little things are usually a learning curve.
